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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
429
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Posted - 2012.09.18 14:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
This looks good, but I suspect there will be a proliferation of Tracking Disruptors on unbonused ships. It might become necessary to weaken them on unbonused ships. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
432
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:
250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5
Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8
720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24
Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3
This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
435
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Posted - 2012.09.18 16:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
In comparing HMLs and other long range weapon system, one important thing that is often forgotten is fitting requirements.
Beam lasers, artillery and railguns have higher fitting requirements than their close range equivalent. In particular beam and artillery ships tend to be glass cannons due to the high fitting requirements. In contrast, HMLs have similar fitting requirements as their close range equivalent (slightly more CPU, slightly less PG). This means they have room for a substantial tank.
I believe that this is the main compensation for the drawback of travel time. HML ships take longer to apply damage, which is why they are more durable. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
438
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Posted - 2012.09.18 17:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:For all those that are upset about the heavy missile nerf - we need one of the spreadsheet jockeys here to throw up a graph of DPS vs range for all four battlecruisers. Compare max skilled Drake with HML, navy missiles to a Ferox, Brutix, Hurricane, and harbinger (also with max skills) using the longest-range ammo. Ignore modules and rigs for now - we've seen both tank and gank varieties of all of the above.
Comparing raw DPS and range both before and after the changes, it becomes quite apparent why HML's are being brought in line with other weapons systems. They should provide consistent damage, certainly, but do not need to win both in maximum DPS within optimal AND a base range that exceeds the falloff of most of the long-range turrets.
It's hard to see with numbers on a page - but if you look at the damage curves, they tell the whole story.
Something like this?
http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/lrc.gif
This is with max skills, no other modules besides the weapons and long range ammo. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
442
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Posted - 2012.09.18 17:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:If you're going to compare long range guns and HMLs, use the long range tech II ammo in the HML too.
What is the long range tech II ammo for HMLs?
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
448
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Posted - 2012.09.18 19:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Here are some numbers on HAMs. The maximum range of HAMs with Javelin missiles is 30.4 km.
I'm assuming a bonus of +30% flight time per Tracking Computer loaded with the optimal range script. This gives the following
Javelin max range with no velocity rigs:
1 TC: 39.5 km
2 TC: 47.4 km
3 TC: 52.6 km
Javelin max range with a +15% velocity rig:
1 TC: 45.3 km
2 TC: 54.4 km
3 TC: 60.4 km
Javelin max range with two +15% velocity rigs:
1 TC: 51.3 km
2 TC: 61.6 km
3 TC: 68.4 km
Javelin max range with three +15% velocity rigs:
1 TC: 55.7 km
2 TC: 66.9 km
3 TC: 74.3 km
And for fun, max range with two +20% velocity rigs, one +15% velocity rig, a 5% velocity implant and three tracking computers: 84.5 km.
Disclaimer: we don't actually know how much tracking computers will increase flight time on missiles, the 30% is just my speculation. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
449
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Posted - 2012.09.18 20:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:
I'm not suggesting that at all.
I'm suggesting you make comparisons that are meaningful. Yes, scourge missiles project farther than their counterpart in damage for turrets. But those graphs cherry pick some of the worst DPS turret ammo and compare them to the 2nd best HML ammo, simply to try and compare range projections.
Compare Tech II long range ammo across the board.
Compare Faction DPS ammo across the board.
Compare Tech II high DPS "tracking" ammo across the board.
Then compare the results of each of those graphs to find the balance. Don't cherry pick your data.
You keep saying this but I think you're confused. There is no T2 long range ammo for HMLs. You're thinking of Javelin missiles which are only usable in HAMs.
The T2 missiles for HMLs have both lower range than T1 missiles. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
459
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Posted - 2012.09.19 14:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Eli Green wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aliventi wrote:
For those of us used to comparing these damage types, can you give us the numbers you are working with to prove that Heavy Missiles deserve the 20% nerf to be balanced?
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:
250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5
Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8
720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24
Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3
This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems. do those numbers factor in the travel time of the HML though?
The travel time is balanced by the low fitting requirements which allow for a substantial tank. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
460
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Posted - 2012.09.19 15:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sephanor wrote:
When looking at these numbers keep in mind turrets can change ammo types to take advantage of closer range situations, Heavy Missile users can't.
This is not the correct way to look at it.
As I've said, the compensation for the travel time disadvantage is that HML ships can mount a substantial tank.
At closer ranges travel time stops being a disadvantage because it's so short. At that point it's turret ships that need some advantage to stay competitive. This is why turrets get the option of switching to close range ammo with higher damage.
At close ranges, Arty/Railgun/Beam ships are actually worse than HML ships. Paper tank, can barely track cruisers. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
463
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Posted - 2012.09.20 18:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm just going to repeat it once more:
HMLs are long range weapons.
HMLs are clearly out of balance in regards to dps and range when compared to long range turrets.
The compensation for the travel time of missiles are generous fitting requirements that allow for a substantial tank.
As the engagement range decreases, so does the travel time of missiles. Yet the tanking ability of the HML ship doesn't decrease. This is why the long range turrets have the ability to switch to close range higher damage ammo.
Long range turrets get to pop frigates at long ranges, HMLs get to pop frigates at close ranges (Precision missiles are getting buffed).
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
464
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Posted - 2012.09.20 20:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Here is a more detailed long range fit comparison to demonstrate the concepts outlined earlier:
[Harbinger, beam]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Internal Force Field Array I
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
[empty high slot]
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
70km optimal (Aurora), 10k optimal (Gleam), 16km falloff
305 dps (Aurora), 534 dps (Gleam)
45k hitpoints
Cap lasts 7m of shooting or 2m 28s of shooting+mwd
[Drake, long range]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
88k range
414 dps (CN Scourge), 462 dps (Fury)
85k hitpoints
Many people have claimed that I'm cherry picking data and accused me of not mentioning the fact that turrets can switch to higher damage ammo at close ranges. They claimed that when this is factored in, the Drake is at a significant disadvantage.According to them, this is what justifies the long range dominance of HMLs.
As you can see this is completely false. Drakes don't need to do higher dps at close ranges because in that scenario they lose the travel time disadvantage while retaining their massive tank. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
469
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Posted - 2012.09.22 20:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:My biggest concern in all of this is that the viability of solo exploration in low / null will be seriously affected. While I agree that heavy missiles are currently overpowered, the fact that post patch I won't be able to get past 560 DPS with CN faction missiles, CN faction launchers and 4 CN faction launchers on Tengu is for me a rather serious problem. I live by exploring, and I've found the current breakpoint for efficiency is around 600 DPS. Below that I end up getting probed out and killed before I'm done with whatever it is I'm doing.
That's still better than what the other T3 are capable of at HML ranges. The Tengu will either be adjusted downwards (it currently gets a +100% dps bonus, the others get between +50% and +66% ) or the other T3 will be brought up to the same level. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
469
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 17:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:
I'm just going to start there:
Harbinger CR pulse damage with 2 HS 596 c / 426 s
Myrm counting it's drones as a primary damage and with blasters: 959 void / 798 null
Hurricane just with autos and 2 gyro: 689 h / 492 b
DRAKE WITH HML, SCOURGE FURY, AND 2 BALISTICS: 411 IN 1 FRICKING DAMAGE TYPE.
You're literally comparing apples with oranges, or rather close range turrets with long range missiles.
Try making the comparison with long range turrets. Then look at the hitpoints these ships can get when fit in this manner. You'll find that the Drake is massively advantaged at range and above average even at close range. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
486
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 21:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Updated stats
250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5
Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8
720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24
Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 26 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3
Explosion radius: 140 (previously 125)
The explosion radius change turns out to be roughly a 12% dps decrease against targets with a signature radius of 125 or lower (which is non-MWDing armor tanked T1 and T2 but not T3 cruisers). A target painter negates this.
The question is if this will be enough to curb the HML Drake proliferation. I would not be surprised if HML Drakes continued to be very popular in their bracket after this set of changes. What the numbers above don't reveal is the massive tank that a Drake can field. The loss in HML range is also less severe than it appears since missile acceleration is improved at the same time.
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
486
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 21:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
You mean countered by a booster loki? 130m is right around what an AB/shield Tengu sits at without links
Yes, thanks for mentioning that. I was too lazy to factor in links. Anyway, at the fleet level combat we can expect that the Drake fleet will have sufficient target painter support to make this mostly irrelevant. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
496
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Posted - 2012.10.03 15:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kesthely wrote:
you've just replaced drake blobs with double/tripple heavy neut Raven/Typhoon blobs with More range, effective hp, and more dam vs battlecruisers and up then the current drake blobs.
I would call that a pretty big success to be honest.
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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
498
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Posted - 2012.10.14 20:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Btw, 14th of October says:
1 Zealot 55779
2 Drake 45373
3 Hurricane 27594
4 Naga 26584
5 Loki 25543
6 Tornado 23159
7 Tengu 21838
8 Maelstrom 16372
9 Rokh 13099
10 Stabber Fleet Issue 12411
11 Thrasher 11908
12 Oracle 11884
13 Sabre 11448
14 Cynabal 10552
15 Talos 10203
16 Huginn 9943
17 Legion 9676
18 Manticore 8752
19 Apocalypse Navy Issue 8729
20 Hound 8676
This development is very interesting. It's the first time that the Drake isn't #1 by a large margin. Psychological effect of impending HML nerfs? Or is it the T2 plates as Lili Lu is suggesting?
It's worth noting that HMLs are still #1 weapon system by the way. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
522
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 07:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:Literally, by his definition, Kinetic damage bonus is the weakest in game... so how does a Sac with a 25% RoF bonus.... the 2nd best possible damage bonus in game appear so weak within it's class using HML's....
Maybe it's because the Sacrilege has a damage bonus only to HAMs.
The Nighthawk has always been gimped due to fitting issues.
The Cerberus has more range than is realistically useful in 99% of situations (who needs 189km range on HMLs?) . Essentially the ship has only 3 useful bonuses.
Does this answer your question how these ships are not overpowered despite HMLs being supposedly overpowered? |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
522
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 16:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Noemi Nagano wrote:Roime wrote:So, after all this bloobloo Tengu and Drake got buffed
awesome
How so? HAMs You wanted Tengu that can compete against pirate battleships. You will get 1000 dps Tengu.
The Tengu's missile subsystem is due to a nerf by the way. It has effectively a +100% dps bonus. The next highest dps increase any other subsystem offers is +66%.
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